Split from WI thread

[xThanatoSx]

I believe the rules were not crafted by the system, so much as crafted by the people. The original Force rules, however old they may or may not be, were made by people who wanted to play Laser Tag in general a certain way, not just Laser Force. Furthermore, they instilled this mindset on early generation players, and it just carried over. I would like to watch a game with your rule set in place, but I have a feeling it would not be the saving grace of tournament play.

The differences in Zone and Force are not drastic enough to warrant an argument over any kind of shielding or blind firing rule. If you walk in to a person who already has the position on you, you should be penalized, and you will, when they shoot you. The shielding rule seems like it is there to make everyone feel good about themselves. If I wanted to play quick draw with 20 other people, I would walk in to a bar and shout profanity, draw a 9mm, and go crazy.

Now that this has been split to the place where it is appropriate

Discuss

[tragedy]

I believe the rules were not crafted by the system, so much as crafted by the people. The original Force rules, however old they may or may not be, were made by people who wanted to play Laser Tag in general a certain way, not just Laser Force. Furthermore, they instilled this mindset on early generation players, and it just carried over. I would like to watch a game with your rule set in place, but I have a feeling it would not be the saving grace of tournament play.

You can believe that if you wish, but you are wrong. The LF rules were created by LF players and gradually modified by other LF players since it's inception, and that includes me. I wasn't there when the original ruleset was drawn up, but I think I have a copy. Back when Laserforce (nee Vultrek) first opened, there were no other laser tag systems operating in Brisbane so no, we don't play this way just because we don't like the other rules.
Basically though, bearing in mind that LF is just a game, the shielding mindset is that if you are going to attempt to tag someone, you give them a fair and equitable chance to tag you back, hence the requirement to show a shoulder. Just one is all that is needed. If the IR output from the phaser was not directional, but coned like the shoulders, then the "show a shoulder" rule would be obsolete.
I've had discussions like this (read "arguments") with other US-based players and have always said that how you play on your turf is entirely up to you. If and when you get to play against centres that do use these rules, you will find that they will want to enforce them, so it's not a bad idea to get used to them.

[Trikkitt]

As someone who has played a lot of lasertag on many different systems, I find the blind-firing/shielding rule strange and counter-intuitive to normal lasertag play. I understand that there will be history to the rule, perhaps due to earlier generations of LF not having gun emitters or something.

Using the arena to prevent being hit is an essential part of any lasertag game, as is movement around the arena to gain an advantage over the opposition. If someone takes a position, and I move in to a position that counters it and that leaves them vulnerable, then why should I be forced to expose an additional sensor when I shoot them?

I'm very much against rules that are created to counter a weakness in a system. Play each system to its strengths, use its quirks to your advantage. Keep rules for essential aspects of the game, as each extra rule creates another area of potential disagreement, and these ultimately damage the enjoyability of the games.

From my experience on another system, three countries wanted to compete, all had totally different rules, in the end competitive play could only be achieve by a common ruleset, something that permitted all styles to be merged. This was the most permissive set of rules, and while many didn't like certain aspects it has meant that we can all play each other under the same rules. One of the countries still plays by its own rules internally, but when other teams come to compete the international rules are used.

Please accept this as constructive comments, I'm not complaining about your rules, just giving my observations. I play LF from time to time in the UK, where there is no blind-fire rule.

I'll leave the no following rules to one side for now :p

[tragedy]

As someone who has played a lot of lasertag on many different systems, I find the blind-firing/shielding rule strange and counter-intuitive to normal lasertag play.

What is "normal lasertag play"? What you consider to be "normal" is not "normal" for others. Of the one other system I have played with (zone 3) I found their style of play defensive and boring. Part of the reason for the LF shielding rule is to create an ebb and flow. If a "normal" lasertag style of play were allowed, games would become stagnant and defense-orientated, which is - as i said - boring.

I understand that there will be history to the rule, perhaps due to earlier generations of LF not having gun emitters or something.

on that you are perfectly correct. As I stated earlier though, the IR emission from the phaser is not coned enough ie it doesn't equal the emission from the shoulders, chest or back. Unless you are in line with it when it is pointed at you, then you are more likely to get hit rather score one yourself. Unlike Zone gear, which as I understand it, is just as easy to tag as it is to be tagged.

Using the arena to prevent being hit is an essential part of any lasertag game, as is movement around the arena to gain an advantage over the opposition. If someone takes a position, and I move in to a position that counters it and that leaves them vulnerable, then why should I be forced to expose an additional sensor when I shoot them?

Why not? they have to as well. And if you DO use the field to your advantage then you can easily tag them first.

Play each system to its strengths, use its quirks to your advantage.

And the LF rules allow you to do that, including Shielding and Chasing.

Please accept this as constructive comments

and they are always welcome. Until the forward facing IR emitters on the LF phasers emit a cone of IR the same as the main hit zones on the suits, i personally will not entertain the abolition of the Shielding rule. Having said that however, I am always open to suggestions as to how to improve it, or make it easier without creating loopholes.

as for the Chasing rule, I have one word for you - RESET

[Trikkitt]

As someone who has played a lot of lasertag on many different systems, I find the blind-firing/shielding rule strange and counter-intuitive to normal lasertag play.

What is "normal lasertag play"? What you consider to be "normal" is not "normal" for others. Of the one other system I have played with (zone 3) I found their style of play defensive and boring. Part of the reason for the LF shielding rule is to create an ebb and flow. If a "normal" lasertag style of play were allowed, games would become stagnant and defense-orientated, which is - as i said - boring.

I've played tournaments on around 10 different lasertag systems. While most have restrictions on covering sensors, or not blocking a gun sensor when firing, none have a requirement to show additional sensors except the LF rules. Normal lasertag play would include, using the arena obsticles for cover and moving in a way to dodge shots.

I think boring defensive play is actually more to do with the arena layout than the rules. There are many arenas where its possible to hold an area, resulting in a more static game. To use an example, the LF arena in the UK plays without the requirement to show a sensor, yet it is very difficult to hold an area and good opposition can easily kick you out of an area.

Arenas should be designed to make it very very difficult to hold an area when playing in LF equipment in my opinion.

the IR emission from the phaser is not coned enough ie it doesn't equal the emission from the shoulders, chest or back. Unless you are in line with it when it is pointed at you, then you are more likely to get hit rather score one yourself. Unlike Zone gear, which as I understand it, is just as easy to tag as it is to be tagged.

Zone gear is hard to tag the gun from the front as the sensors point sideways. For this reason tagging someone on the gun is difficult when they are firing around corners. I still regularly get hit on the gun playing Zone and LF, but I feel LF is slightly more sensitive. People seem to have no trouble tagging me firing straight on at my gun... and if I don't think I can win a situation like that I'll move to a position that allows me a better shot.

Using the arena to prevent being hit is an essential part of any lasertag game, as is movement around the arena to gain an advantage over the opposition. If someone takes a position, and I move in to a position that counters it and that leaves them vulnerable, then why should I be forced to expose an additional sensor when I shoot them?

Why not? they have to as well. And if you DO use the field to your advantage then you can easily tag them first.

But if I've taken the time and effort to move to a point that will kill them, even if they can see me move, they have to decide do they stay or go. The arguement of "why not" could be applied to many things that aren't needed.

Play each system to its strengths, use its quirks to your advantage.

And the LF rules allow you to do that, including Shielding and Chasing.

Sorry I should be clear. Play the SYSTEM to its strengths. Rules are rules and aren't part of the system, shielding and chasing rules are not part of the game itself.

Please accept this as constructive comments

and they are always welcome. Until the forward facing IR emitters on the LF phasers emit a cone of IR the same as the main hit zones on the suits, i personally will not entertain the abolition of the Shielding rule. Having said that however, I am always open to suggestions as to how to improve it, or make it easier without creating loopholes.

as for the Chasing rule, I have one word for you - RESET

The reasons that I mentioned this is because the sites I have played at do not use the shielding rule, and at least one doesn't use the no-following rule. This creates problems for inter-centre/country tournaments. I think it also speaks volumes that players in other LF centres do not like the shielding rule. I'd be interested in knowing, outside of Australia and NZ stronghold that LF has, how many centres actually enforce/use the sheilding rule?

A less important aspect is that the shielding rule acts as deterent for players from other systems. Beyond showing gun sensors, no other system has a requirement to show other sensors. Adapting to/from this rule would not be easy and could easily result in huge penalties in tournaments for breaking the rule by accident.

Erm, I wasn't going to get on to following rules, but hey. Personally I think no-following rules are poor simply because I hit you I want to retain my advantage. I do love the LF resetting/clearing system that prevents you hitting the same person again while down, without hitting someone else first. It just seems strange to me that you have this unique and excellent feature but still have a no following rule, again something thats relatively rare in lasertag... some systems actively encourage it!

[xThanatoSx]

Erm, I wasn't going to get on to following rules, but hey. Personally I think no-following rules are poor simply because I hit you I want to retain my advantage. I do love the LF resetting/clearing system that prevents you hitting the same person again while down, without hitting someone else first. It just seems strange to me that you have this unique and excellent feature but still have a no following rule, again something thats relatively rare in lasertag... some systems actively encourage it!

Yes, some systems do actively encourage it.

But those systems also aren't lives based at a tournament level. While some are reload based (Q-Zar/Quasar immediately springs to mind), in no other systems tournament game that I'm aware of can you actually have your mission ended early for running out of lives.

Getting back to your comment about "other LF centers not liking the shielding rule" - it's an evolutionary process. When I originally started playing in Sacramento 11 years ago, we played basically with unlimited following, guns only around corners etc. What changed was I happened to go to a tourney in AU in 99 and saw these tourney rules in action - I didn't know until I got there about these rules, but after watching/playing a few games with them, I was convinced about them making the game flow much better. Coming back and trying to implement them was a process, but one that eventually happened. Now with LF having a ton of new sites and a fair few of those sites converted from other systems, it's going to make it another evolutionary process.

[Trikkitt]

The no-following aspect I can accept, I guess I'm playing devils advocate on that front. I agree with limited life games like SM5 no following does make sense.

Elimination style tournaments do sometimes run on other systems, but they generally have a mechanism to allow the player to get away, or make it not worth your while following.

I've not seen tournament play with the shielding rule operating, and I'm unlikely to unless I visit you guys. I'd be interested to know what level of complaints over this rule are received during a tournament. I just see it as a hard to enforce rule thats easily broken and doesn't serve a real purpose. If the guns had no emitters then I'd totally understand you view and why its there, but they do, all bit not the easiest thing to hit.

I think you'll struggle with getting centres to convert. No following I think could be adopted.... shielding you'll have a much harder time imo.

[troyoda]

I just see it as a hard to enforce rule thats easily broken and doesn't serve a real purpose. If the guns had no emitters then I'd totally understand you view and why its there, but they do, all bit not the easiest thing to hit.

The rule is very easy to enforce with a 2k point penalty for each blindshot (seen by a ref). For an average player, about 3 blindshots and your whole score for the game is pretty much gone, and most likely some nice comments from your team.

[xThanatoSx]

Nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate - and outside perspective isn't a bad thing either.

I think the other thing that is getting over-looked is how the penalties are traditionally called during a LF tourney - after the game, the teams seperately(sp) come up with the list of penalties they saw, those lists are communicated to the refs, and the ref's confirm the penalties that they saw also.

Yes - it's cumbersome. We're aware of that. However, it does balance/cancel out phantom calls. The other thing it does is people will only tend to call things that were either A) blatant or B) game changing in nature.

It does make a difference seeing it in action at a tournament level. When I first got to AU in 99 and was informed of the shielding rule, my first reaction was "You've got to be f****** kidding - that's f****** stupid." A couple days of playing with it, and the reaction was then "Ahhhhhh - I get it."

[Trikkitt]

I just see it as a hard to enforce rule thats easily broken and doesn't serve a real purpose. If the guns had no emitters then I'd totally understand you view and why its there, but they do, all bit not the easiest thing to hit.

The rule is very easy to enforce with a 2k point penalty for each blindshot (seen by a ref). For an average player, about 3 blindshots and your whole score for the game is pretty much gone, and most likely some nice comments from your team.

Thats partly my point. Anyone adapting from another system will suffer in a big way during a tournament. This affects not just those who want to give LF a try, but also centres that have converted from another system. I'm sure with a lot of practice people can adapt, but that takes time and requires everyone to comply. Just knowing about a rule doesn't mean in the heat of a game you'll remember to show a shoulder, when by instinct you wouldn't do that.

I personally I know that by instinct I would break this rule. I struggle enough remembering not to follow!

These rules may serve a purpose to some, but to me it seems to be a rule that gives the established players a bigger advantage over new players as new players will be much more likely to break the rule by accident. It will also create a barrier, which means an event like Armageddon would not be possible if you expect people to follow a rule like that.

[troyoda]

I just see it as a hard to enforce rule thats easily broken and doesn't serve a real purpose. If the guns had no emitters then I'd totally understand you view and why its there, but they do, all bit not the easiest thing to hit.

The rule is very easy to enforce with a 2k point penalty for each blindshot (seen by a ref). For an average player, about 3 blindshots and your whole score for the game is pretty much gone, and most likely some nice comments from your team.

Thats partly my point. Anyone adapting from another system will suffer in a big way during a tournament. This affects not just those who want to give LF a try, but also centres that have converted from another system. I'm sure with a lot of practice people can adapt, but that takes time and requires everyone to comply. Just knowing about a rule doesn't mean in the heat of a game you'll remember to show a shoulder, when by instinct you wouldn't do that.

I personally I know that by instinct I would break this rule. I struggle enough remembering not to follow!

These rules may serve a purpose to some, but to me it seems to be a rule that gives the established players a bigger advantage over new players as new players will be much more likely to break the rule by accident. It will also create a barrier, which means an event like Armageddon would not be possible if you expect people to follow a rule like that.

It works both ways. I know if I went to another system I would struggle as I would just get annoyed at everyone not showing sensors.

If they arrange to have big tournaments including both systems then a set of rules should be made to apply to both systems at that time, OR play by the rules set for each system individually. Zone players will always have the advantage on their system and laser force players on theirs, I dont think that is going to change.

The rule was set out for the laser force system, not for any other system. If your centre does not want to follow the rule, then I am sure that is fine. If at anytime you decide to play nats/internats then you would have to learn the rule.

[xThanatoSx]

These rules may serve a purpose to some, but to me it seems to be a rule that gives the established players a bigger advantage over new players as new players will be much more likely to break the rule by accident. It will also create a barrier, which means an event like Armageddon would not be possible if you expect people to follow a rule like that.

Armageddon is something of a unique case in all this. In that sort of situation, I'd be much more likely to take a similar stance to what I try to do when we have new players show up on a members night: you inform them of the rules (usually chasing and shielding are the only 2 anyone has any problem with - everything else is pretty standard), you demonstrate, and you accept that in game some mistakes are going to be made. A friendly "watch your shoulder" etc. in a members night situation works wonders.

Again though - seeing it in action really does help from the "how does this make sense" aspect.

*edit*

The other thing I noticed going from how we originally played in Sacramento to the proper rules was that our newer players seemed to get better quicker than under the old system. Your milage may vary with that.

[tragedy]

(this will surprise and shock some)
I agree that Armaggedon is a unique tournament. But I differ from Thanatos in my opinion of what rule could be used.
For that particular tournament, or any others that are multi-system, I agree players should be allowed to hide behind walls whilst targeting. One of the reasons is that while difficult, it is not impossible to tag a gun from front on, but the biggest reason will be that since every other system's player is used to that style of play it would just be easier to delete that part of the rule.

It's gotta be much easier to "shield" when you are not used to playing that way than it is to not "shield" when you are used to hiding.

I would still want to disallow hiding behind other players, blocking shoulders/gun with hands/arms etc, and blocking shots on bonus targets.

For standard intercentre Laserforce Tournaments the standard ruleset should be used. Why? Laserforce system - Laserforce rules

I reiterate that our Shielding rule makes games more fair, faster, and far more free-flowing. If you don't beleive me, ask reformed Zone players like Nite Owl, Thanatos, and any of Than's mates from Sacramento that still post here.

I'm going to start a new thread for discussion on Chasing too.

[Pojo]

Or me! Seriously though, Sm5 would be a rubbish yawn-fest of a game if we played it by zone rules. Hell, if we were doing that we could just stay on that format and play Presidents instead.

[tragedy]

Yeah ask Pojo too!!

Sorry Simon, didn't know you were that old-school.

[xThanatoSx]

And let's clarify - I was never a zone player.

We just used what were essentially Zone rules in Sacramento when we started.

[Pojo]

Yeah ask Pojo too!!

Sorry Simon, didn't know you were that old-school.

It's ok Traj, you can still share my bed. I only started playing LF after I moved from Geelong (where I started playing Zone3) to Melbourne (where I continued at Flinders Lane, Box Hill and South Yarra) and all but Box Hill shut down. The closest laser tag to me was LF, which Mental got me into back in '98/'99. (I'd played it once before, but if it weren't for him, I'm not sure I'd have kept playing instead of making more trips to Box Hill). I played about 250-300 games all up, including some against Stun 'Em 'n' Stone 'Em and a handful of other gun players, across other fields including Sunshine (awesome multilevel field) and Bourke St. Also went to Box Hill a few times with Al, Mental, Vader and others back in the day.

[Siony]

Pfft, Sunshine sucked when i went there. They had like 8 bases

[Pojo]

8 bases? Are you kidding me? They only had three back in the old days. I think it was Green down the ramp, Yellow and Red up top.
Why the hell would they go and add in 5 more? The maze isn't that big!

[Novas]

i have found this an interesting discussion. some good points made by trikkett, and it did make sense to me on his explanation of why blindfiring should be allowed.

i have to agree that to play this style of gameplay would severely change the tactics of sm5 and make it a boring game. lets face it, sm5 is the only reason to play lf.

i am also curious to see if trikkett has actually played sm5 and if he has even tried to play without shielding. keep trying and it does get easier, especially when everyone does it and enforces it.

i also found it amusing that he thought the chasing rule would hurt newer players. a rule that gives people a chance to get away and wait for their suit to reactivate gives them more of a fighting chance than being hunted down. the shielding rule will also mean that by having an equal chance of shooting someone that is trying to shoot them will give them encouragement to keep coming back. without the introduction of new players any laser tag game will not survive.

[Manok]

i have found this an interesting discussion. some good points made by trikkett, and it did make sense to me on his explanation of why blindfiring should be allowed.

i have to agree that to play this style of gameplay would severely change the tactics of sm5 and make it a boring game. lets face it, sm5 is the only reason to play lf.

i am also curious to see if trikkett has actually played sm5 and if he has even tried to play without shielding. keep trying and it does get easier, especially when everyone does it and enforces it.

i also found it amusing that he thought the chasing rule would hurt newer players. a rule that gives people a chance to get away and wait for their suit to reactivate gives them more of a fighting chance than being hunted down. the shielding rule will also mean that by having an equal chance of shooting someone that is trying to shoot them will give them encouragement to keep coming back. without the introduction of new players any laser tag game will not survive.

Yeah it may work on other systems and with other games but can you imagine there being no chasing rule in an SM5 game with a newbie medic? All it would need is for the resup to get moved once and a top player could just chase and reset the medic until they were dead real fast. Also it lets old fat guys like me run away, and that's a good thing...... I can't comment with any authority on the shielding rule as I have only ever really played LF, however it seems to make sense to me. Why would you want to have a game with everyone just hiding behind a wall and sticking their guns over it and firing? Doesn't seem right somehow.....

[Pojo]

Why would you want to have a game with everyone just hiding behind a wall and sticking their guns over it and firing? Doesn't seem right somehow.....

Despite this, Darkzone still flourishes. Although dogfights and what not do occur, it's still of a more static nature with (in my experience) players congregating around one area, waiting to come up then popping a few opponents before getting shot again. Repeat. The only time some would move was if they were getting dominated, or they wanted to hit the other colour gen, whereby the same process happens again.

That said, there is about a half-second window jsut before a suit reactivates in which you can down that player again, so one is quick and accurate enough, it is possible to keep another player down for extended periods.

[xThanatoSx]

Zone has some other advantages in terms of a flourishing tournament scene though.

At a corporate level (at least in AU/NZ - not so much in the US), there seems to be a real support for intercenter competition. Whether or not corporate helps underwrite some of the center's costs during a comp, I have no idea. But they do seem to be a lot more "hands-on" with it in terms of sanctioning etc. They also have a lot more sites than we do. Combine more sites with corporate seeming to take an active role in promoting tournaments, and you get a recipe for 20-30 teams at a nationals. Granted, they also run 3 teams in the maze at once for their tournaments and the games are only 10 minutes long, but still.

[Pojo]

Yeah, I hear ya. They even held a tourney in Bendigo last year, of all places! It's great that they do so well on this level, I just wish LF could manage the same thing and had at least a similar level of corporate support (at least an overt one).

[ikari]

Given that Gen 6 runs on Windows we already have Microsoft as a potential backer

Maybe if Len commissioned a Bill Gates suit...

Alternatively Lynx might consider sponsorship- they'd make a killing from a deoderant stand set up adjacent to centre armouries